Burger Joints and Byzantine Churches
Posted by Karl (May 29, 2006 at 3:43 pm)
Imagine that you lived in a town where there was a McDonald’s on one corner, a Burger King on another corner, a White Castle down the road, and a Culver’s next door to that. Do you think it would be a good idea, if you were an investor, to start up another hamburger stand? It would be very hard to succeed as just another place to get a fast-food burger. Such a move would be unwise. What you should do is start a submarine sandwich store, something that is different, unusual enough to attract customers.
How does this relate to Byzantine Churches? For most of the last century, we have been building burger stands in Burgertown. Due to persecution from Roman Catholics, self-doubt, and an understandable desire to fit in, Byzantine Catholics in the United States have attempted to be like Roman Catholics. Let me give you an example: I went to a liturgy presentation given by the Eparchy of Parma where the presenter said “This is why a Byzantine Church has an icon of Christ Pantocrator on the ceiling.” Everyone in the church looked up at the ceiling, only to see. . . nothing. No icon. We had just been told by our bishop (through his representatives) that a proper church has a Pantocrator, and the church we were in didn’t have one. It might as well have been a Roman church with a few icons. It was a hamburger stand.
It is no secret that Byzantine churches are facing a quick death, if demographic trends continue as they have for the past few years. Most of our churches consist of the elderly, folks whose children and grandchildren have abandoned the Byzantine Church. Why is this? Certainly there has been a loss of faith across the board, but Roman churches still seem to be well-attended. Why is it that we have lost so much? I think it is because we have not given anyone any particular reason to come to our churches. What is distinctive about Byzantine Christianity has been muted, and the lost children of our Church may have said to themselves “Why should I bother to go the Byzantine Church? It’s not much different than the Roman Church.” It’s just another burger joint.
It seems to me that what we need to do in order to become a truly evangelical Church is to be what we are, with an exclamation point. If there’s a Byzantine church in town, everyone ought to know about it because of its architecture. If visitors come into the church, their senses should be seduced by the beauty of our icons, incense, music, and liturgy. We should leverage our uniqueness, just like Subway did to attract people away from the hamburger fast-food giants.
What does this mean? It means that if our church doesn’t have a Pantocrator, we must get one. If we don’t have an iconostasis, we must get one. If our liturgy is not authentic, we need to make it so. If we’ve substituted a Saturday liturgy for Vespers, we need to fix it. If our church building is unsuitable for Byzantine liturgy, we need to tear it down and build anew. We need to heed the call of John Paul II and return to our authentic traditions.
This may seem extreme, but assuredly our Church will vanish in thirty years. It is a demographic certainty, if current trends remain. If you are going to die anyway, you might as well die fighting!
Is the situation so dire? It’s anecdotal, but our Byzantine church seems to be growing though our church does have a Pantocrator, Saturday vespers, an authentic liturgy, etc…
Comment posted May 30th, 2006 at 9:22 am
Know anyone who would be willing to do a decent Pantocrator on my parish’s ceiling? :)
Comment posted May 30th, 2006 at 6:21 pm
Corect me if I’m wrong, but it is my understanding that it is not the Byzantines’ place to attract otherwise practicing Latin-rite Catholics to their churches.
The United States is a countrythat his received its Catholicism primarily from the Latin Church; it’s only natural that we would be more active in the evangelization process. Most Christians in this country are Protestants, and they ultimately have their roots in the Latin tradition: again, it only makes sense that these would be attracated more to Roman parishes than Byzantine.
Yes, there are exceptions. I think the Byzantine parishes, being as they are in the religious and ethnic minority, do just fine if they just focus on their own parish life. Quite Latinizing, restore your ancient customs, and people will come. Let us Latins do all the dirty work.
In Eastern Europe and the Middle East the inverse would be true, I suppose. No?
Comment posted May 31st, 2006 at 12:51 pm
Please allow me to clarify this remark:
“Corect me if I’m wrong, but it is my understanding that it is not the Byzantines’ place to attract otherwise practicing Latin-rite Catholics to their churches.”
What I meant here is that, ideally, practicing Latin-rite Catholics ought to be active in their territorial parish. Sometimes this is not feasible, especially when the pastor is a Modernist.
I certainly did not mean to imply that Latins ought not visit Byzantine parishes: on the contrary! Nearly every week, I assist at two liturgies: a Tridentine-indult Mass and one other Eastern Catholic rite. (My Archdiocese “contains” five Eastern parishes: Ruthenian, Ukranian, Melkite, Maronite, and Suro-Malabar.) I went to the Ruthenian parish last Thursday; I wanted to go to a church that actually celebrates Ascension on a Thursday!
Comment posted May 31st, 2006 at 1:03 pm
The situation for Byzantines in the US is indeed dire, as a glance at any of the statistics will confirm.
However, I would locate the reason for the decline in population mobility trends.
Here’s the deal: Most US Byzantines have lived in places like Pa. and Ohio - slow-growing or no-growing states that are losing their young people to the sunbelt. But the churches are not following the people down south: NC, where I live, has 1 Byzantine church and 1 Maronite church in the whole state (population 8+ million).
But before you charge the Byzantine leadership with being slow to change, consider this: Byzantines in Pa. are concentrated in towns in numbers that allow Byzantine parishes to operate. Byzantines going to the south get scattered far and wide over six or seven states and dozens of metro areas in those states. Getting a “critical mass” may not be easy.
But if I were in charge of the Byzantine churches I would make “moving south” my number one priority. Unfortunately, it would more than likely entail painful chuch closings and mergers in the old traditional areas up north and the result, short term, could be an even weaker church.
Comment posted May 31st, 2006 at 4:37 pm
I should add too that I do not disagree with the comments about the need for being authentically Eastern.
Comment posted May 31st, 2006 at 4:42 pm
There is a large potential market in the US for Byzantine Catholicism. There are, you no doubt know, many many people who are very dissatisfied with the current state of the Latin liturgy. Why aren’t Byzantine Catholics more aggressively going after them? The problem isn’t that the Byzantine Churches look too generic–even the most watered down Byzantine liturgy looks much better than the average Roman-rite offering. I suspect that it has more to do with the fact that many Byzantine parishes appear to be ethnic social clubs absolutely uninterested in winning converts. Very unfortinately, this will lead to the extinction of Byzantine Catholicism and it won’t be the fault of the Latins.
Comment posted May 31st, 2006 at 5:08 pm
If you are in the Eparchy of Parma and want to see a nice (though small) Byzantine church, check out St. Emilian’s in Brunswick. They have a lovely iconostasis, an icon of Christ Pantocrator, and that gorgeous icon of Christ enthroned in the womb of the Blessed Virgin that I don’t remember the name of. (I have an excuse - I’m a Latin Rite Catholic, I just have Byzantine friends and attend a lot of their liturgies).
Don’t, however, go by their website which is woefully out of date.
Comment posted May 31st, 2006 at 5:25 pm
My experience does not allow me to share your pessimism. St. John Chrysostom in Seattle features a church (though small) with a very distinctive, Byzantine interior, a dynamic, orthodox priest and a small but thriving congregation with many young families.
Granted, that is simply my own anecdote to provide, but I also cannot believe that SJC is alone in its mission.
Comment posted May 31st, 2006 at 5:39 pm
Dear Hoody and Diana,
I’m glad to hear it. There are bright spots, and they should be encouraged. My own parish is a similar bright spot. I myself am not pessimistic. The current dire demographic trends give us the freedom to dream big dreams, since we have little to lose.
Comment posted May 31st, 2006 at 5:44 pm
Can anyone give an example of this “persecution from Roman Catholics”?? I’m used to hearing that kind of thing from the Russian Orthodox, but it surprised me that some Byzantine Catholics in the US have a similar perception.
Comment posted May 31st, 2006 at 8:37 pm
Jared—The persecution of Byzantines by Latin Rite authorities in the U.S. cannot be compared to the persecution they experienced under communism. However, it has been quite real and quite painful for those who have experienced it.
Perhaps the most notable such case is that of the icy reception married Ruthenian priests received from some Roman bishops in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, which eventually resulted in a schism by which a large portion of Byzantine Catholics reverted to Orthodoxy.
Less dramatic examples include being compelled to build churches in a Latin style, as was done here in Aurora, IL, when Romanian Catholic parishes were still under the local Latin Rite ordinary. We’re only now, forty years later, getting a Pantocrater (workmen are constructing the scaffolding at this very moment).
If you visit a Byzantine Church and talk with some of the older parishioners, you’ll hear stories about how they were reguarded with suspicion by Latin Rite Cathoilics, even their own friends (as for example when they were in Latin Rite schools). You’ll hear about Byzantine kids being told they aren’t “real Catholics” by their Latin Rite school fellow or even teachers.
Wonderfully, that all has not only changed but turned around 180°. Latin Rite Catholics are now fascinated by all things Byzantine—as this former Latin Riter can attest!
Comment posted June 1st, 2006 at 12:56 pm
Amen.
Let’s hope that the younger generation (i.e., me, Katie Gulas, the rest of the teens) can get this turned around. At times like this we should be thankful for energetic young people…
Comment posted June 1st, 2006 at 11:32 pm
In regards to the Latin Rite persecution of the Byzantine Catholic Churches, would asking Latin Rite Catholics to offer Masses in reparation for their persecution of the Byzantine Catholic Churches help heal any left over wounds?
Comment posted June 4th, 2006 at 3:47 pm
reluctant penitent says:
There is a large potential market in the US for Byzantine Catholicism. There are, you no doubt know, many many people who are very dissatisfied with the current state of the Latin liturgy. Why aren’t Byzantine Catholics more aggressively going after them?
Comment posted May 31st, 2006 at 5:08 pm
I would like to say in reply that Byzantine Catholics should not be “going after”, or “recruiting” Latin Catholics. Latin Catholics love their liturgical traditions just as much as Byzantine Catholics love their liturgical traditions. Latin Rite Catholics who sometimes worship at Byzantine Catholics Churches are usually there because of the liturgical abuses that sometimes go on at Latin Rite Churches. Many, if not most, of these people would be at their Latin Rite Churches if the liturgical abuse died down.
I have, on a couple of occasions, experienced Byzantine “recruiting”.
I was planning my Confirmation, and I think I mentioned to a man(who is Latin Catholic, but knows some Byzantines), that I wanted to be Confirmed at a traditional ceremony. By “traditional” I meant by a Bishop at an indult Tridentine Latin Mass(which I ended up doing). This man said that he had some Byzantine connections, and that he could apparently arrange for me to receive Chrismation in the Byzantine Rite. I politely declined his invitation.
On another occasion, I asked a Byzantine Catholic man online about Eastern Catholic fasting rules, since I was interested in a more severe fasting rule. In his reply he suggested that I see about changing my ritual Church enrollment to an Eastern Church. I replied politely to him that I did not want to do that, since I prefer the Latin Rite way of doing things.
Of course I regard the Byzantines(and the other Eastern Catholic Rites) as Catholics. I have some icons, which I think are beautiful. But I prefer the Latin Rite, whether Tridentine or Novus Ordo.
So I think that Latin Catholics should not switch to the Byzantine or another Eastern Catholic Rite SOLELY because they are dissatisfied with the state of the Latin Rite.
I know that I love the traditions of the Latin Rite.
Comment posted June 8th, 2006 at 4:19 pm
As an ‘outsider’ to the Latin Rite, but having my ‘ear to the ground’ in hearing commentary I relate the following. On several occasions I have spoken with those who being RCC, have come to be disheartened by the feminization, such as women serving the Host, etc, etc. They have in one local Roman parish, on Saturday night a kind of rock band set-up, complete with guitar, amp, drums with cymbals…ah precisely what the Fathers banned…I.E. pagan worship practices. BUT
Comment posted June 11th, 2006 at 5:51 am
I have this suggestion for people of the Latin Rite who are dissatisfied with liturgical abuse, and cannot get to a Tridentine Mass, or a decent Novus Ordo Mass:
Attend an Eastern Rite Mass/Divine Liturgy, but do not officially switch Rites, and keep up your Latin Rite traditions. When a reverent Mass of the Latin Rite comes along, then start going to it.
You don’t have to switch to an Eastern Rite, in order to attend regularly.
So it is not a question of to switch or not to switch! That is good news indeed!
Comment posted June 12th, 2006 at 2:31 pm
I’ve been flirting with Cathollicism for years and at this point I’m leaning strongly towards becoming Eastern Rite;particularly Byzantine because it is the only Eastern Rite church for a few hundred miles.
I admit, I’m interested for spiritual purposes and the ethnic culture holds little interest for me.I’m far from provincial, nor anti (I’ve lived abroad, taught ESL and have always been exposed to other cultures, etc), but I don’t want to get caught up in being ethnic not even in my own ethnic group. Fortunately, this church does have several very active members (dedicated converts all)who do not belong to the predominant ethnic group, and they’re the ones who told me about it. My understanding is that the other two(of three) Eastern Rite Churches in the state are heavily ethnic. I do wonder what will happen if I move to another state with few Byzantine churches, and those heavily ethnic. I don’t knock ethnicity because it is everywhere, but my experience is that people get sidetracked by deep seated cultural traditions and if you don’t click with the culture it is hard to feel comfortable.
I’ve visited another Eastern rite church that is down the street from my childhood home, and frankly, it was always seen as an ethnic church with no interest in interacting with anyone else. All the years in the neighborhood (35+)and I don’t recall any effort to reach out to neighbors except for cultural festivals that seemed designed for their own extended families. During my visit no one was hostile, but I wasn’t greeted or spoken to before or after the service. I’ve been told that an Eastern Rite church in a nearby state is thriving and flourishing and very multicultural. I admit, I don’t know if they’re spouses , people with a cultural affinity for the predominant ethnic group or whether they were attracted by the spirituality. That would be interesting to find out.
When church hopping with a very conservative student Catholic group we attended a Byzantine service. In talking to a RC seminarian after the visit it was clear that many of the members really felt that Roman Catholicism is the true and only real Catholicism. The seminarian even dismissed much of the Byzantine history we learned from the very knowledgeable church members. That was disconcerting. But I did meet some Benedictine monks who were knowledgeable and very enthusiastic about Eastern Rite churches. Also, it is good to see Latin participation on this and other Eastern rite forums.
In short, (ha!) it would seem that people need to be made aware of Eastern Rite spirituality apart from ethnicity. Also, in discussing the ethnicity both with outsiders and the young and disaffected ethnics,there should be a focus on how ER spirituality influences the cutlure in a positive manner. I suspect that the children and grandchildren see the churches as the place everyone in there culture meets, eats and speaks in the mother tongue. That’s certainly how I see my group’s churches. No interest whatsoever in the theology, but the visiting, food and music are subllime.
I suspect there are even non-Catholics to whom a spirituality that joins the East and the West would be appealing.
How to do this? Where to find these folks? I don’t know but I’ll put on my thinking cap and I”m sure there are many of you with far more creative minds than mine.
Peace,
Daisy
Comment posted June 15th, 2006 at 11:34 am
Oh my, in reading this over I see how negative my post was. My apologies. I’ll make a point of being much more positive in the future.
Daisy
Comment posted June 15th, 2006 at 11:37 am
Devin,
There is a wonderful professional iconographer who painted everything in his church.I believe that includes the Pantocrator.Please check out the church website to see his work:
http://www.saintbasilthegreat.org/
I’ve not discovered all the mysteries of linking yet!
Peace,
Daisy
Comment posted June 15th, 2006 at 12:02 pm
Erik G,
I think it’s well past time that someone respoonded to your post. I can’t speak for other BCC members but I’m not interested in evangelizing RCC members unless they are totally paganized or have become atheists in practice. If they come they come.
There are plenty of people who have no Church connection at all and several more who have not come to realize that they need one. With the chaos in western culture there is plenty of people that desparately need the message of the Gospel. There are millions who would respond to the Eastern approach.
We need authentic temples and liturgy to start but we also need the courage to go where the people are: street corners, homes, work places, etc.
CDL
Comment posted June 21st, 2006 at 6:27 am
>Imagine that you lived in a town where there was a McDonald’s on one corner, a Burger King on another corner, a White Castle down the road, and a Culver’s next door to that. Do you think it would be a good idea, if you were an investor, to start up another hamburger stand?
So what do you think about the fact that in the few places an upstart Byzantine “Ruthenian” parish has taken root in locales outside the ethnic core, within a few years the Ukrainians have come in and planted themselves a new separate parish?
Toms River, NJ
Dallas, TX (cf. Irving)
Atlanta, GA (cf. the Roswell / Conyers churches)
and now Raleigh, NC (cf. Cary)
Granted, Dallas, Atlanta and perhaps Raleigh are large enough metro areas to hopefully support multiple Byzantine parishes, but AFAIK Toms River is primarily a retirement community.
Still, if you look at those original parishes even though they are “alive” in some sense, none of them is by any means a large parish, and yet here again we have a multiplying of temples, rectories, halls, etc.
(Of course, then again we have the sad situation in Denver where a group of non-Russians decided they needed a separate, Russian church.)
What does the Annunciation, Homer Glen IL model have to say about this phenomenon?
Comment posted June 28th, 2006 at 5:59 pm
RDC,
This is a fair question. Thank you. We haven’t really discussed this issue all that much, though personally, I think that the Eastern Catholic Churches ought to work together much more than they do. I suppose that most of the places you mentioned are large enough for more than one Byzantine parish, except for Toms River (that’s only conjecture) it is a shame we don’t pool our resources. We could be more effective I believe.
CDL
Comment posted June 28th, 2006 at 7:06 pm
well said.
Comment posted June 30th, 2006 at 7:47 am
The nearest Byzantine Catholic Church to Anchorage, Alaska is in Seattle, Wa.–although we have a Mission, 45 miles north of our church(Blessed Theodore Romzha Byzantine Catholic Mission in Wasilla, Ak. — old Sacred Heart Roman Catholic Church). Check out our web site–up-to-date, www.ak-byz-cath.org . On our brightly colored sign on a front portion of our property at 2200 Arctic Blvd, there is a separate sign below the main sign that reads—-EVERYONE IS WELCOME . If those passing on this major arterial see that sign, they would know that “anyone” can enter and be a part of the beautiful Divine Liturgy. We do receive visitors(tourists) from out of state, and periodically other Roman Catholic’s, Orthodox and other religions. On our sign in roster, many will say—beautiful, spiritual , very nice, etc. Within the narthex, the Pope is visible on a door to bell room. Many Roman Catholics are surprised to learn from me(in many cases) about the 22 different churches as part of the Catholic Church. I (as the Cantor) am very proud of our church and can give a quick explanation to these people if they need it, of the differences from RC. Most of our parishioners are RC, but some have come here for many years as its their choice. If people are proud of their church and its liturgy, they will talk about it to others–we need this. Big John
Comment posted July 6th, 2006 at 1:39 am
Marvelous. Thanks, will spread this among my friends!
Comment posted December 28th, 2006 at 7:42 am
Marvelous. Thanks, will spread this among my friends!
Comment posted December 28th, 2006 at 7:48 am
Marvelous. Thanks, will spread this among my friends!
Comment posted December 28th, 2006 at 7:57 am